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Substitutions based on sendings off
I have just been looking through the Scottish Divisions and I spotted this match from day #1.

Ggdgwert (778 ) 0 - 3 Dan Athletic Fcb

In this match there were 3 sendings off. What really caught my eye was the substitutions based on the 3 red cards.

Substitutions
Off V Bonilla On S Gregory (42)
Off F Twain On H Walther (58 )
Off J Healing On B Draper (92)

1) Defender sent off. Subbed off a striker for a defender.
2) Midfielder sent off. Subbed off the remaining striker for a midfielder.
3) Midfielder sent off. This happened to be the replacement midfielder. As we know from the previous substitution, in the even of a midfielder being sent off, they will take off a striker and bring on a midfielder. What has happened is that as they have already subbed off both of their strikers they now sub off a midfielder to bring on a midfielder. To add insult to injury they have brought on all of their available midfielders and so a striker is brought on.

With the new update meaning that players playing out of position don't play as well as previously, then surely the assistant manager reacting to a midfielder being sent off by taking off another midfielder and bringing on a striker to play in midfield is the last thing a manager would want.

The team getting 3 sending offs is a vacant one, so aggression 3 is used. That makes no sense at all!

I have had a quick scan through other leagues and clearly 3 sendings off is an extreme, but I know of 2 other matches where due to red cards teams have ended up with no strikers up from.

In the first instance 1 midfielder and 1 defender were sent off, so fresh players came on and both strikers were subbed off.

In the second instance first a striker was red carded, and no action was taken by the assistant manager. But when a second player was red carded the remaining striker was brought off to bring on a replacement.

I know when I plan my substitutions following a red card I want to bring off a player where I have excess to fill up an area where I am lacking. In the past I have played 5 at the back and set one of my excessive defenders to come off in the event of a red card further up the field. I would not like to set this again, as I could easily end up with 3 or 2 defenders, which I would never want.

I am not sure what the solution is, but I think it is wrong for the assistant manager to bring off all strikers, and then to start bringing off midfielders if there are no strikers left.

Out of curiosity, what happened after the strikers were taken off?

Ending up without a striker is a viable option btw, however that should be entirely up to the manager!

I am not saying it's not a viable option, it is whether it is the desired outcome.

Removing a midfielder, as there are no strikers remaining, to bring on a striker to play in midfield, as there are no more midfielders on the bench, is clearly a bug. The game has chosen to do something that the manager didn't select as an option.

There is a game today which has caught my eye. They had a striker sent off and chose to take off 1 defender for a fresh striker. IF another striker was sent off, then another defender would be brought off, reducing the team to 2 defenders, to bring on another striker. This would happen even if there were no more strikers on the bench. If there were no defenders left, who next, would it be a midfielder subbed off or the goalkeeper?

I would proposition if a team selected to bring off a striker, if there are no strikers remaining, then the game shouldn't choose another position. Though, having said that, if the latest red card is to a keeper, you'd want any position to come off than none. To sacrifice a midfielder to bring on a midfielder make no sense.

I would also proposition that if a manager selects to bring on a striker and there are nolonger any strikers, then it is not right to bring on somebody out of position.

Ouch. The player brought on to cover for the red-carded player got a red card himself.

Good thing it's a vacant team- I'd have been raging if that had happened to me...

I couldn't find another team with 3 sendings off for day #2, but I have found some teams with 2 sendings off.

One of these matches was..

FC Binopolis (231) 3 - 1 Lancaster Reds FC (828 )

Substitutions
Off A Constantinou On C Hunter (40)
Off K Carr On L Strange (88 )

In this match 2 defenders were sent off. With the first red card s midfielder was brought off and a defender brought on. For the second sending off there were no more defenders on the bench, so a very good midfielder was brought off to bring on a lesser midfielder to play in defence.

I would question, if a suitable player isn't available on the bench, in this case there was no defender, if a midfielder is being taken off only to bring on another midfielder, surely the midfielder already on the pitch would be best suited to make the adjustment and thus save making an unnecessary substitution.

When we have multiple sendings off in one position, there is a fair chance that we won't have 2 players for that position available on the bench, and it seems wrong to remove better player only to bring on lesser players.

Hmm...

How about 7 subs (keeper plus 2 for each outfield position)?

That could solve this particular problem. OK maybe not the extreme of 3 sendings off but 99.9% of situations?

A lot of people only maintain a squad of 18 in the first place. Given that suspensions are more likely now, a bench of 7 is frequently not going to be filled anyway- or filled with the wrong sort of player. Plus it would take away the option of forcing your idiotic AM to bring on the one midfielder you want him to bring on by only having that midfielder on the bench.

The best solution would be to have named player options for sendings-off, and only make it applicable to the first one if there were multiple sendings-off in the same position of the pitch.

They're gonna need a bigger squad then!

OK how about:

GK sent sent off Take off (named player) Bring on (named player)
Def1 sent off etc
Def2 sent off etc
Mid1 sent off etc
Mid2 sent off etc
Fwd1 sent off etc
Fwd2 sent off etc

But I don't know what Ron has planned for changes to subs/tactics.

Then give us the means to enlarge our squad instead of a TM that makes it impossible to guarantee a signing and a YA that randomly turns you down.


How far do you go? We've had 3 sendings-off in a single game.

1. Lower your sights when looking for players? Someone mentioned earlier there were more than 200 players on the market. You can't always buy better than you currently have. Ism't that a little unrealistic?

2. Yes, in one game out of 1,000 we've had in 2 rounds of matches. Come on...

It's coming FS

As to having insufficient players to fill positions with send offs and injuries. What happens in a real game if your keeper gets sent off and then the substitute gets injured?

I'm guessing that an outfield player goes in goal but doesn't perform as well as a proper keeper

This exactly. How many clubs in the top leagues of Europe can replace 5 first teamers without weakening their side? I'd say less than a dozen.

The moment you tell a manager that he needs to weaken his squad if he wants to continue playing is the day he goes to find another game to play. That's just human nature. We don't like going backwards just to survive.

Come on, PS, you were in the Think Tank too, you know everything we said...

Only a suggestion FS...

If managers want to play with a small squad they may have to adapt to the update.

What about tuning an update which is totally the wrong way to go.

We want to attract managers to this game, not drive them away with a bunch of reds and yellows which is totally unrealistic.

This game is unrealistic. 3 reds for a team playing with an aggression which equals a pussy cat? The team getting 3 reds also has less fouls than the other.

There should have been a control in the game not making this happen.

For those saying this is only one match, surely it isn't representative.

What if this happens in a final with a team playing agg 3? This has the potential of making people leave the game, and it can destroy the credibility of it totally.

My issue isn't with sendings off, or the size of the subs bench. 5 subs is standard for most leagues. 3 sendings off is an extreme, but it does happen. I would be curious if the game has catered for a team going down to 6 players through injuries, sendings off, and suspensions.

My issue is purely with an instruction to, say, bring off a striker to bring on a midfielder, and the assistant manager bringing off a midfielder (when intructed to bring off a striker) to bring on a striker to play in midfield. In effect the assistant manager couldn't perform the instruction, and rather than do nothing, he's done the next best thing. Unfortunately in this instant the next best thing has been to take off a good midfielder and bring on a striker in midfield which has weakened the team. The better option in this instance would have been to do nothing.

As I said earlier, it gets awkward with the AI, because sometimes you would always want the instruction carried out. If you goalkeeper is sent off, then you definitely want to bring another goalkeeper on. But if you have no more goalkeepers on the bench, maybe the best option isn't to use up one of your 3 substitutions, but to move an outfield player into goal.

Again, I think this is a difficult area to code, but I don't think the way the 3 sendings off was handled was ideal.

This is a major thing and thank you for bringing it up. I do believe it will be too complex to code, but I'd love to see it at some point in the future.